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	<title>Comments on: The Great Conversation</title>
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		<title>By: Jennifer D</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-9350</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-9350</guid>
		<description>No, I agree not everyone has to like him.  I&#039;m not the huge fan you are, but I still have a lot of respect for the guy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I agree not everyone has to like him.  I&#8217;m not the huge fan you are, but I still have a lot of respect for the guy.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelley</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-9349</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-9349</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Jennifer&lt;/strong&gt;, I&#039;m glad I have your respect (right back atcha) and I&#039;m entirely sure that I have Duncan&#039;s too, as he has mine.  We&#039;re just disagreeing.  That&#039;s cool.  Not everyone has to like Bono (in fact, I&#039;m sure Bono is more than used to it, grin).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Jennifer</strong>, I&#8217;m glad I have your respect (right back atcha) and I&#8217;m entirely sure that I have Duncan&#8217;s too, as he has mine.  We&#8217;re just disagreeing.  That&#8217;s cool.  Not everyone has to like Bono (in fact, I&#8217;m sure Bono is more than used to it, grin).</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer D</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-9348</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 18:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-9348</guid>
		<description>Duncan, my comments re RFK were based on my knowledge of history and not on the excerpt Kelley shared with us.  I try not to (but sometimes emotions do influence me) make generalized statements about people/things about which I have no knowledge.

I like and highly respect the host of this blog, and it so happens that Kelley knows more about Bono than most people.   I assume that you also respect Kelley, Duncan.  Maybe you should do a little more digging into some of the things she&#039;s written about U2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duncan, my comments re RFK were based on my knowledge of history and not on the excerpt Kelley shared with us.  I try not to (but sometimes emotions do influence me) make generalized statements about people/things about which I have no knowledge.</p>
<p>I like and highly respect the host of this blog, and it so happens that Kelley knows more about Bono than most people.   I assume that you also respect Kelley, Duncan.  Maybe you should do a little more digging into some of the things she&#8217;s written about U2.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelley</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-9326</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-9326</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Duncan&lt;/strong&gt;, sure, I agree that King&#039;s insistence on finding a door into RFK was tactical.  It&#039;s a good tactic.  We often have to work with or through people we don&#039;t like in order to get things done.  Finding something we can feel positively about connecting on, or a positive way to influence each other, is a good thing.

I think that all Bono is saying here is that anything we can do to humanize other people in times of conflict is more conducive to resolving the conflict.  I don&#039;t think he&#039;s trying to make a point that RFK was a saint.  We can disagree on his interpretation (honestly, who cares?).  I don&#039;t think we disagree on the overall point.

I do try to encourage conversation here.  I want to be open to different opinions and disagreements.  But I do need to ask for some clarification from you.  Your first paragraph seem to read to me as though you&#039;re assuming that because I called Bush out for his pronunciation, that I am a person who looks down on other people about accents in some global sense, and that I am petty.  If you&#039;re intending to describe me that way, then we&#039;ll need to talk more about that.  Actually, it&#039;s not clear to me whether the whole first paragraph is addressed to me specifically or to some general reader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Duncan</strong>, sure, I agree that King&#8217;s insistence on finding a door into RFK was tactical.  It&#8217;s a good tactic.  We often have to work with or through people we don&#8217;t like in order to get things done.  Finding something we can feel positively about connecting on, or a positive way to influence each other, is a good thing.</p>
<p>I think that all Bono is saying here is that anything we can do to humanize other people in times of conflict is more conducive to resolving the conflict.  I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s trying to make a point that RFK was a saint.  We can disagree on his interpretation (honestly, who cares?).  I don&#8217;t think we disagree on the overall point.</p>
<p>I do try to encourage conversation here.  I want to be open to different opinions and disagreements.  But I do need to ask for some clarification from you.  Your first paragraph seem to read to me as though you&#8217;re assuming that because I called Bush out for his pronunciation, that I am a person who looks down on other people about accents in some global sense, and that I am petty.  If you&#8217;re intending to describe me that way, then we&#8217;ll need to talk more about that.  Actually, it&#8217;s not clear to me whether the whole first paragraph is addressed to me specifically or to some general reader.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-9322</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-9322</guid>
		<description>Kelley, I agree that it&#039;s more pleasant to listen to Obama than to Bush.  But I don&#039;t put much store by that.  Even though I&#039;m a grammar neurotic myself, I have no use for people who go into conniptions over the pronunciation of &quot;nuclear&quot; as &quot;nukular,&quot; who look down on people for their accents, and so on.   Such petty obsessions should be kept private in my opinion, especially when so much is at stake.  After all, Hitler was a great orator too.  (I&#039;m &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; saying that Obama is Hitler, only that great eloquence can and does coexist with vile politics.)  Second, &quot;authentic&quot; is a sound that can be and is cultivated; it&#039;s what acting is all about, learning to fake sincerity and authenticity.  If you find yourself lulled by any politician&#039;s authentic sound, you should pinch yourself and pay more attention to what is actually being said.  I&#039;m not in love with Obama, so I apparently find it easier than his fans do to attend to his content, but I usually rely on transcripts and such more than video and audio.  It&#039;s as much because I&#039;m a reader first and foremost as anything else.  (By the way, it&#039;s probably past its freshness date by now, but have you ever read Mark Crispin Miller&#039;s &lt;i&gt;The Bush Dylexicon&lt;/i&gt;?  It&#039;s a great analysis of Bush&#039;s rhetoric in particular, and in the way it worked politically and with the media.)

Thanks for adding context to Bono&#039;s story, but it doesn&#039;t really change anything.  Jennifer also seems to have forgotten that the story is about RFK when he was first appointed attorney general, when he was still basically a McCarthyite, and there&#039;s nothing in the story to indicate that King and his associates were wrong about him -- only that, thanks to the intervention of his bishop, instigated by King and his people, RFK changed.  While JFK lived, he and his brother were trying to block and contain the Civil Rights movement, trying to stop the March on Washington and doing nothing while people were being beaten and killed in the South.  I don&#039;t have enough books on that period at home, but I found my copy of Taylor Branch&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Pillar of Fire&lt;/i&gt;, and it confirms what I&#039;m saying here. Even more, privately King seems to have held JFK in contempt even after his assassination; Branch reports an obscene (not a word I use lightly) and enraged outburst King made while watching JFK&#039;s funeral on TV.  He tempered that disgust in public commentary, but it doesn&#039;t seem that King ever forgave JFK for his deadly intransigence.  The book ends in 1965, so I can&#039;t trace King&#039;s relations with RFK, but it doesn&#039;t matter much since the whole point is that RFK changed his views after the period Belafonte was talking about, as the material you added shows.  Which doesn&#039;t mean he wasn&#039;t a racist prick before; there&#039;s nothing in that story to indicate he wasn&#039;t.

Which is why Bono&#039;s interpretation of the story is wrong, as I said.  King was &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt;, as far as I can see, saying that we shouldn&#039;t &quot;caricature&quot; and so on.  I&#039;m sure King would have agreed that we shouldn&#039;t, as do I.   But King&#039;s insistence on finding something positive about RFK was, as I said, tactical.  Like a Mafia boss, if you like, saying, &quot;How can we get to this guy?&quot;  They found someone RFK would listen to, and that was a major factor in his change of opinion.  This doesn&#039;t diminish King in my eyes.  I remember Sarah Schulman saying that she and other Lesbian Avengers read Taylor Branch to learn King&#039;s tactics for direct action.

As for Bono, I don&#039;t know much about him (except that he used to be a good singer), but people whose opinions I respect see him as a self-promoting hustler.  I&#039;ll withhold judgment on that score, but this excerpt doesn&#039;t incline me to like him.  Still, doors can be opened, and conversation (I agree) is important.   Thanks, Kelley, for allowing and encouraging it here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kelley, I agree that it&#8217;s more pleasant to listen to Obama than to Bush.  But I don&#8217;t put much store by that.  Even though I&#8217;m a grammar neurotic myself, I have no use for people who go into conniptions over the pronunciation of &#8220;nuclear&#8221; as &#8220;nukular,&#8221; who look down on people for their accents, and so on.   Such petty obsessions should be kept private in my opinion, especially when so much is at stake.  After all, Hitler was a great orator too.  (I&#8217;m <b>not</b> saying that Obama is Hitler, only that great eloquence can and does coexist with vile politics.)  Second, &#8220;authentic&#8221; is a sound that can be and is cultivated; it&#8217;s what acting is all about, learning to fake sincerity and authenticity.  If you find yourself lulled by any politician&#8217;s authentic sound, you should pinch yourself and pay more attention to what is actually being said.  I&#8217;m not in love with Obama, so I apparently find it easier than his fans do to attend to his content, but I usually rely on transcripts and such more than video and audio.  It&#8217;s as much because I&#8217;m a reader first and foremost as anything else.  (By the way, it&#8217;s probably past its freshness date by now, but have you ever read Mark Crispin Miller&#8217;s <i>The Bush Dylexicon</i>?  It&#8217;s a great analysis of Bush&#8217;s rhetoric in particular, and in the way it worked politically and with the media.)</p>
<p>Thanks for adding context to Bono&#8217;s story, but it doesn&#8217;t really change anything.  Jennifer also seems to have forgotten that the story is about RFK when he was first appointed attorney general, when he was still basically a McCarthyite, and there&#8217;s nothing in the story to indicate that King and his associates were wrong about him &#8212; only that, thanks to the intervention of his bishop, instigated by King and his people, RFK changed.  While JFK lived, he and his brother were trying to block and contain the Civil Rights movement, trying to stop the March on Washington and doing nothing while people were being beaten and killed in the South.  I don&#8217;t have enough books on that period at home, but I found my copy of Taylor Branch&#8217;s <i>Pillar of Fire</i>, and it confirms what I&#8217;m saying here. Even more, privately King seems to have held JFK in contempt even after his assassination; Branch reports an obscene (not a word I use lightly) and enraged outburst King made while watching JFK&#8217;s funeral on TV.  He tempered that disgust in public commentary, but it doesn&#8217;t seem that King ever forgave JFK for his deadly intransigence.  The book ends in 1965, so I can&#8217;t trace King&#8217;s relations with RFK, but it doesn&#8217;t matter much since the whole point is that RFK changed his views after the period Belafonte was talking about, as the material you added shows.  Which doesn&#8217;t mean he wasn&#8217;t a racist prick before; there&#8217;s nothing in that story to indicate he wasn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Which is why Bono&#8217;s interpretation of the story is wrong, as I said.  King was <i>not</i>, as far as I can see, saying that we shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;caricature&#8221; and so on.  I&#8217;m sure King would have agreed that we shouldn&#8217;t, as do I.   But King&#8217;s insistence on finding something positive about RFK was, as I said, tactical.  Like a Mafia boss, if you like, saying, &#8220;How can we get to this guy?&#8221;  They found someone RFK would listen to, and that was a major factor in his change of opinion.  This doesn&#8217;t diminish King in my eyes.  I remember Sarah Schulman saying that she and other Lesbian Avengers read Taylor Branch to learn King&#8217;s tactics for direct action.</p>
<p>As for Bono, I don&#8217;t know much about him (except that he used to be a good singer), but people whose opinions I respect see him as a self-promoting hustler.  I&#8217;ll withhold judgment on that score, but this excerpt doesn&#8217;t incline me to like him.  Still, doors can be opened, and conversation (I agree) is important.   Thanks, Kelley, for allowing and encouraging it here.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelley</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-9204</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-9204</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Barbara&lt;/strong&gt;, nice to see you!  Yes, I agree, that expression matters in our leaders.  The thing I appreciate about Obama is that he often sounds quite authentic to me... I&#039;d almost forgotten what that&#039;s like.

And I&#039;ll be he never ever says &quot;nucular&quot; instead of &quot;nuclear&quot; (Shrub drives me &lt;em&gt;insane&lt;/em&gt; with that).

&lt;strong&gt;Duncan&lt;/strong&gt;, I probably should have included the rest of the story about MLK and Kennedy, but it felt like it was getting long and I wanted to get to the light (grin).  The rest goes like this (again quoting Bono):

&quot;Well, it turned out that Bobby was very close with his bishop.  So they befriended the one man who could get through to Bobby&#039;s soul and turned him into their Trojan horse.  They sort of ganged up on this bishop and got the bishop to speak to Bobby.  Harry became emotional at the end of this tale: &#039;When Bobby Kennedy lay dead on a Los Angeles pavement, there was no greater friend to the civil rights movement.  There was no one we owed more of our progress to than that man&#039;....And whether [Harry] was exaggerating or not, that was a great lesson for me, because what Dr. King was saying was: Don&#039;t respond to caricature...&quot;  Etc.

Not trying to make you like Bono more (grin), just worried that I had not given you the full context.

Thank you &lt;strong&gt;all&lt;/strong&gt; for responding to my hope for the possibility of opening doors and finding light behind them.  It&#039;s important to me right now, and I appreciate the chance to share it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Barbara</strong>, nice to see you!  Yes, I agree, that expression matters in our leaders.  The thing I appreciate about Obama is that he often sounds quite authentic to me&#8230; I&#8217;d almost forgotten what that&#8217;s like.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;ll be he never ever says &#8220;nucular&#8221; instead of &#8220;nuclear&#8221; (Shrub drives me <em>insane</em> with that).</p>
<p><strong>Duncan</strong>, I probably should have included the rest of the story about MLK and Kennedy, but it felt like it was getting long and I wanted to get to the light (grin).  The rest goes like this (again quoting Bono):</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, it turned out that Bobby was very close with his bishop.  So they befriended the one man who could get through to Bobby&#8217;s soul and turned him into their Trojan horse.  They sort of ganged up on this bishop and got the bishop to speak to Bobby.  Harry became emotional at the end of this tale: &#8216;When Bobby Kennedy lay dead on a Los Angeles pavement, there was no greater friend to the civil rights movement.  There was no one we owed more of our progress to than that man&#8217;&#8230;.And whether [Harry] was exaggerating or not, that was a great lesson for me, because what Dr. King was saying was: Don&#8217;t respond to caricature&#8230;&#8221;  Etc.</p>
<p>Not trying to make you like Bono more (grin), just worried that I had not given you the full context.</p>
<p>Thank you <strong>all</strong> for responding to my hope for the possibility of opening doors and finding light behind them.  It&#8217;s important to me right now, and I appreciate the chance to share it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-8945</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-8945</guid>
		<description>Duncan, I think you are absolutely wrong on both counts.  The Kennedy&#039;s were initially reluctant friends of the civil rights movement, but once RFK became educated about the situation, he played a major role in turning the tide of civil rights in this country.  It was his enforcement of the law that turned the tide for civil rights in this country after desegregation.  Because of him Pres. Kennedy appointed more African Americans to public posts than anyone ever before him, including 5 federal judges.   I&#039;m pressed for time right now, or else this would be much longer with specific examples.  MLK came to know and like Bobby in the end.  The world would be  a much better place if he had not been murdered.

Bono  is a huge talent, and he has done an untold amount of good as an activist in recent years.  Look at his &quot;Red&quot; campaign and his efforts to fight poverty there and globally.

It&#039;s a lot more than I have done.  

And since I am looking for the light, that is all I will say right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duncan, I think you are absolutely wrong on both counts.  The Kennedy&#8217;s were initially reluctant friends of the civil rights movement, but once RFK became educated about the situation, he played a major role in turning the tide of civil rights in this country.  It was his enforcement of the law that turned the tide for civil rights in this country after desegregation.  Because of him Pres. Kennedy appointed more African Americans to public posts than anyone ever before him, including 5 federal judges.   I&#8217;m pressed for time right now, or else this would be much longer with specific examples.  MLK came to know and like Bobby in the end.  The world would be  a much better place if he had not been murdered.</p>
<p>Bono  is a huge talent, and he has done an untold amount of good as an activist in recent years.  Look at his &#8220;Red&#8221; campaign and his efforts to fight poverty there and globally.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a lot more than I have done.  </p>
<p>And since I am looking for the light, that is all I will say right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-8938</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 21:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-8938</guid>
		<description>Oh, and I forgot to mention, I&#039;ve been standing here trying to think of one redeeming thing to say about Bono, whose interpretation of that anecdote is quite outrageously off.  Um... he used to be a good singer?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and I forgot to mention, I&#8217;ve been standing here trying to think of one redeeming thing to say about Bono, whose interpretation of that anecdote is quite outrageously off.  Um&#8230; he used to be a good singer?</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-8937</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 21:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-8937</guid>
		<description>I like that anecdote about Belafonte, King, and Bobby Kennedy, but let&#039;s remember that Belafonte was right -- that the Kennedys were not friends of the Civil Rights movement in America.  King&#039;s response was correct, as a recognition of the proper tactics for dealing with those in power, and of the actual balance of power in the society.  That&#039;s quite compatible with recognizing what a scumbag they had to deal with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like that anecdote about Belafonte, King, and Bobby Kennedy, but let&#8217;s remember that Belafonte was right &#8212; that the Kennedys were not friends of the Civil Rights movement in America.  King&#8217;s response was correct, as a recognition of the proper tactics for dealing with those in power, and of the actual balance of power in the society.  That&#8217;s quite compatible with recognizing what a scumbag they had to deal with.</p>
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		<title>By: barbara sanchez</title>
		<link>http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/the-great-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-8936</link>
		<dc:creator>barbara sanchez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 21:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/?p=2055#comment-8936</guid>
		<description>You are as usual, eloquent. Eloquence was a forgotten and dissed skill until Obama ran for president. We forget how persuasive beauty of expression can be. The Declaration, the Constitution and the Bill of rights are nothing if not eloquent. Let&#039;s hear it for  the beauty of ideals and the beauty of their expression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are as usual, eloquent. Eloquence was a forgotten and dissed skill until Obama ran for president. We forget how persuasive beauty of expression can be. The Declaration, the Constitution and the Bill of rights are nothing if not eloquent. Let&#8217;s hear it for  the beauty of ideals and the beauty of their expression.</p>
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